That NEW Adage

A pressure-relief valve about God, and just about everything else.

“The Defense Rests. The Defense is Sleepy.”


The following is a conversation I had with a person on this blog in the form of a comment he, or she left in response to a post (“Charlatan’s Web”) I wrote about Word of Faith charlatans and their obsession with materialism. I felt the need to publish it in this form because I wrote so MUCH! No, really, I felt that it summed up the feelings of those in the WoF congregation, and identified why a defense of orthodoxy is necessary. I mean not to offend by posting this since his comment was made public. The first portion of what follows is his comment, unedited. The second section is mine. I hope this reaches some.

He said:

  i think you guys are missing everything! what’s wrong with being a christian and have the blessing of the Lord over your family and wealth? can we not be rich and righteous. there’s nothing wrong with money, it’s the love of money that is wrong. we can have victory over any circumstances in our lives because Jesus went to the cross, died, and rose from the dead to take the authority from the devil and gave it back to us humans. that authority to speak and have power was once lost when Adam gave it away in the garden of Eden. if you truly listen to the message from ministers from WoF is that we’re giving all the glory, honor, and everything we own to God. it’s through obedience, faith, and spirit led that we’re blessed. “if you seek the kingdom of God first, then he will add everything onto you.” to see a harvest you must plant a seed and feed that seed with your faith. that seed is going to help bless someone and i don’t care who it is as long as God see that i am obeying him someone will come my way to help me. i say that it is true we give our 10% that belongs to God and offerings on top. it’s through giving that i have become a better person…now, i’m not rich! but i’m rich in the holy spirit and i’m in line for my blessing. when someone gets blessed with what they hoped for…i don’t get mad or jealous…i’m like…wow, God is great. if you look in the old testament kind david and other kings were rich…and he did a lot of things that would not get away today. he was a murderer and committed adultery. CNN & FOX, would have a field day about a man of God who did that. but look God forgave him and he repented and his wealth passed on. people think that Jesus was poor…it never said that in the bible…why would God send his only son to be broke…Jesus talks a lot about prosperity through God. i don’t think anyone of us has ever took money advice from a bum.

  • Comment by hmmm..  October 11, 2007
  • I  replied: 

      No, the fact is that I think that you are missing a couple of things… First, the point is not that I think God wants everyone poor, which is the straw-man argument the WoF uses, but that He wants us CONTENT in whatever state we find ourselves, as the Bible teaches. And the VICTORY that we can have in our “circumstances” is to be resigned to God’s will, whatever that is.

    Jesus did not go to the cross for that or any authority, but to RECONCILE us to the Father, to HEAL the rift between us, NOT to heal cancer or such, which is the proper, broad context of Isaiah 53:4, 5. The PHYSICAL portion of that passage was completely fulfilled in Matthew 8:16-17. Please read it. And please read the context– before and after– any such passage you hear quoted. No matter WHO teaches it. This is your Christian duty.

    That stuff about Adam having lost the “authority to speak and have power…” Please show me where the actual BIBLE teaches that. And other of the teachings of WoF teachers that take authority- and divinity– from God, and give it to man.

    I humbly suggest that WoF ministers do NOT give glory to God (precisely by claiming that men are in any way god material), but they usurp the glory of God and give glory to “Faith,” man and mammon! They brag about STUFF, and whip folk into frenzies about all the STUFF God is trying to get to them. They tell sick people that their lack of faith, not God’s sovereignty, is alone the reason for their sickness. This is dangerous.

    In the Sermon on the Mount, which is where you got your quote about “seeking first the kingdon of God…”, PLEASE note that the context of the entire sermon is not about being rich. And the near, specific context of your statement, Matthew 6:33, clearly shows that The LORD is not speaking of being rich and diabetes-free, but of being CONTENT, and worry-free. Please notice that.

    I cannot stress this next point more strongly: Please notice that in the SAME chapter, Jesus tells us “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth… store up for yourselves treasures in heaven,” for your heart will be where your treasure is!!! That is to say, if you focus so strongly on earthly wealth and materialism, that is what you will worship.

    The Bible never says that Jesus was poor? Allow me to differ! Everything about his life says He was poor. There is no shame in being poor. He “Made Himself nothing,” His parents were of meager means, He was born in a stinking sheep stable, “birds of the air had nests, but the Son of Man had nowhere to lay His head.” Five-member churches have treasurers, so spare me the Avanzini, T.D. Jakes quotes. I could go on. He even told a RICH guy to go and sell everything he had in order to follow Jesus. But the guy loved his stuff too much.

    And SEEDS in the Bible are more likely DEEDS than MONEY! That is a ploy to get ours.

    We who decry the false teacher are not doing so because we are “jealous” of their money. I certainly am not! As a matter of fact, it is ALWAYS the WoF adherents whom I constantly hear gleefully yelling about “the wealth of the wicked being lain up for the just!” and delighting in being “the head, and not the tail.” (Didn’t Jesus chastise His disciples for arguing over status?)

    Yes, David was rich. As was Abraham, Solomon, Job, Joseph and many others. But the often-missed point is that many saints were dirt poor. And they were no more less blessed than the rich ones. God is able to work through ALL, rich, AND poor. This shows that financial status is no determinant in being blessed by God. And I never heard Creflo or any of the others quote the passage about asking God to make us content in whatever state we find ourselves. We don’t have to lie on Jesus’ tax bracket in order to rationalize our desire, not for God, but for what is in His HAND!

    God says His strength is made known through our weakness. And if we get our status from what we have, rather than in the service of God, we essentially say we don’t need His help, and the reward we get here is all that we will get!

    Finally, find out what true prosperity is. God sent “His only Son to be broke,” as you say, perhaps because in that way, the lowest of the low can beseech Him and identify with Him. I bet you can’t “touch the hem of Creflo Dollar’s garment” without getting a beatdown! Also, God came in meager humanity and can identify with OUR hunger, pain, and weakness.

    Come on up in your thinking. Life is not all, not even MOSTLY, about money! Money should be our servant, not the Master whose presence we so fervently desire! That is all I am trying to say here.

    I am not trying to belittle you or disrespect you. It is just that I can’t stand seeing people robbed in broad daylight. God bless you, Derrick.

    This is what they want: They want your MONEY. Period. They don’t want you informed. They don’t want you scholarly or Berean. They want you GREEDY! They want you like chirping baby chicks– open-mouthed and empty-minded. They don’t love God OR you. Only your pennies and quarters. Read your bibles. During the week. Learn about CONTEXT! This will eliminate a lot of the Scripture-pretzelizing that goes on in a lot of churches.

    I don’t say this because I want your money. Maybe this endeavor will send up timber, as the old folks say, although I want a BRICK mansion, not a wooden one! I only write about crooked preachers because they are biblically-armed robbers, and it is Christian work to make a citizen’s arrest, as that theologian, Barney Fife, would say.

    I thought I would have a lot of people reading about some of the other stuff I’ve posted. I’ve written about race, parenting my boy, Max, atheism, music, and lots of other things, but nope! False teachers seem to be the squeaky hinges that need all the grease!

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    October 12, 2007 - Posted by | Charlatans, Christianity, Creflo Dollar, False Doctrine, False Prophets, False Teachers, Frederick Price, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Pulpit Pimps, T.D. Jakes, TBN, Televangelists, The Nature of God, Word of Faith

    7 Comments »

    1. Amen! WoF deserves to have the light of truth shown … to expose the false preachers and help rescue the deceived. And you did it brilliantly, too!

      As to your last paragraph … It reminds me of something I read about Rich Mullins. Someone remarked to him that they all know TV preachers are crooked, but did he (Rich) really need to name names at his concerts?

      Being pro-truth does require being anti-lie.

      Comment by wickle | October 12, 2007 | Reply

    2. Good post. I like your heart, and that energy. It is nice to know that others are fighting this war and not just sitting back waiting for the next blessing to be delivered. Keep it up.

      Steve Blackwell

      Comment by indywatchman | October 16, 2007 | Reply

    3. Thanxalot, indywatchman. I’m glad to know, also, that there are other people concerned with the well-being of those who earnestly seek God. I guess I really knew that God’s people would not truly abandon their responsibility.

      Comment by maxdaddy | October 16, 2007 | Reply

    4. Maxdaddy: I didn’t see the first postings and there are some things that I truly agree with you on in this post. But there are some things that I take exception to. I will only respond to a couple now, not sure how much disagreement you allow on you blog and I just don’t feel like typing for nothing.
      I do agree that many of the prosperity preachers are out there preaching whatever feels good and whatever will motivate the congregations to give their money. A lot of them are basically motivation speakers who have zeroed in on a way to make a nice buck.
      But still, you said…..”to RECONCILE us to the Father, to HEAL the rift between us, NOT to heal cancer or such, which is the proper, broad context of Isaiah 53:4, 5.
      I say, look at the state of man in Genesis before the fall. If the rift that Jesus was “healing” was the relationship between man and God as you state, then who was Adam before the fall? Was Adam sick and hurting and lacking? In Gen 1:26-….and let them have authority over all the earth and over everything that creeps the Earth.Ver 28 goes on to say ….be fruitful, multiply and fill the earth. Adam had control of his environment, he was healthy, he was well fed, and once he got with Eve (wink wink) he was content AND he was able to freely communicate with God. Now by healing the rift between man and God what was it that Jesus restored us back to?
      You said….” The PHYSICAL portion of that passage was completely fulfilled in Matthew 8:16-17.” I’m trying to follow you on this one because Jesus heals again and again after that. So were you trying to say that because that prophesy was fulfilled that He retired from healings? Do you think that Jesus came to Earth and left instructions for establishing churches only to relinquish all of His compassion and empathy for the very people that He came to save? Do you know of anyone who has been physically healed? Not cured by a Dr. but healed? I am trying to understand because I like most of the things that you post but this time I really couldn’t go all the way with you. Let me know what you think.

      Comment by micca | October 20, 2007 | Reply

    5. Micca, thanks for your response. No, I allow disagreement! I think it would be, for me, kind of phoney to only allow those with whom I agree to post. Disagreement forces me to go to the Bible and study it to make sure I’m in line with it. It is the opportunity to sharpen my iron, so to speak. I am not a theologian, only a layman, and I need all the study I can get, as do we all. It is a fearful thing to take casually or mishandle the things of God, and to the extent that someone may take what I say and run with it, I want to be dead sure that I did the best I could!

      Let me be clear: I absolutely believe that God heals, but I also absolutely believe that it is not the norm for people to be miraculously healed. Were that the case, we would see story after story of arms and legs being replaced, and empty eye sockets being filled and dead people being resurrected. We don’t. Why not?

      It is my contention that Jesus’ healings were to PRIMARILY fulfill prophecy as to who He was. And that the apostles’ healings were to PRIMARILY lend credence to their station as the foundation of the church (which can only be laid once, according to Scripture), and to establish them as who they really were. Of course many people were healed. Many were not, though. I contend that, as the Bible says, our primary concern is not that which kills the body. Our main focus is to be on eternity, alongside which, time barely even exists. “Though He SLAY me, yet will I trust in Him.” When that tower fell and killed those people, Jesus told us not to be so concerned with that, but to get our souls right because we ALL will die (some cruelly) and face God.

      Matt 8:17 states that,
      “This was to FULFILL what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: ‘He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases.’ ” (When a prophecy is fulfilled, it is fulfilled. The reason we say that Jews are mistaken is because the prophecies concerning the Messiah have been FULFILLED in Jesus. There is no need to wait for further fulfillment.)

      That prior quote is from Isaiah 53:4 only. verse 5 says, “BUT He was pierced for our transgressions (sins)… crushed for our iniquities (sin)… AND by his wounds we are healed (from the eternal consequences of sin).” This last part, read as literature, logically concludes that what His wounds healed was sin, not disease.

      Now, I submit that diseases are the RESULT of sin, not sin itself. In other words, autism may be the indication of our fallenness, but it is definitely not a sin for a child to be autistic!

      No, I don’t suggest that the healings stopped there, but as I stated earlier, they sure decreased in number, till now miraculous healing is RARE at best! I’m only saying, in using Matt. 8, what the BIBLE has said. I’m not adding to it.

      The compassion of God CERTAINLY remains with us. We have the Comforter, for instance, but my point is that there are numerous passages that state CLEARLY what Jesus’ mission was here– to redeem mankind, to justify us, to reconcile us, to atone for our SIN, to declare us POSITIONALLY righteous (not PRACTICALLY SO).
      These, and many other clear and unambiguous passages certainly outweigh two or three dubiously interpreted verses in Isaiah.

      As you know, hermeneutically speaking, we must ALWAYS interpret cloudy passages in light of those that are clear.

      As for Adam, I’m kind of unclear on what you are suggesting here. If you are saying that we are restored to what Adam was before the fall, I say that Adam was made GLORIFIED and undefiled. Paul teaches us that we, being once again POSITIONALLY righteous, are but a bud of what we will blossom into when we recieve OUR glorified bodies at the end of all things. We only now see through a glass darkly. We will not be practically restored until after the resurrection. The Bible is clear on that. Besides, if we were like Adam was, we’d be living 900-some years like he did. We still sin daily, and still have to ask forgiveness for that sin daily. How can we claim to be “all that” when we now have to stand on Jesus cloak, so to speak, to have fellowship with the Father? Our righteousness is still filthy rags!

      By the way, the word “authority” is not an autonomous word. Any word HAS to be interpreted within its context. The Word of Faith movement likes to use the omnipotent form of this word almost always, and that is faulty exegesis. Adam was a STEWARD. An employee of God. God’s gardener, His botanist, His ornithologist, His biologist, His agriculturalist, etc. Adam’s authority went as far as God’s front door. No further. IF that far!

      I hope I covered it all. It would be cool if you agreed with me, but if you don’t, that is fine. I would just ask, as always, that we learn that the Bible is literature, and should be read as such. It should be interpreted INternally, and sewn together like a tapestry.

      I appreciate the charity and fairness with which you framed your comment! I might have to post this one, too! God bless. Derrick.

      Comment by maxdaddy | October 21, 2007 | Reply

    6. Thank you maxdaddy for giving your common sense (rooted in godly wisdom) comments to some of the things that I (personally) believe are wrong about the modern church and doing it humbly and in love. I think many who object to the thinking of individuals as yourself and others and defend the “Pulpit Pimps”, wolves and assorted cabal who try to pervert the prosperity of God into a ad hoc excuse to “be like the world” and “serve two masters” drinking the brew of “name it and claim it”
      “http://www.luxist.com/2007/11/08/creflo-dollar-defends-his-rolls-royce-again/
      will, if they read scriptures more closely be very dissapointed. God wants us to be happy with what we have and grow prosperous…….in Him! IMHO I don’t think that aquiring jets like Dollar and other is necessary to preach gospel. On the same end I see nothing wrong with being a millionaire and a Christian,especially if you are humble with you success. but most of these wealthy preachers are IMO peverting the TRUE gospel to fleece the sheep and injecting “Traditions of Men” into the Truth of God. Bankrupt in true humilty are many TBN-type preachers and their fleeced followers who believe in the Old Covenant (Old Testament) thinking, a form of thinking that applied ONLY to the ANCIENT JEWS under the OLD COVENANT (Not to be Confused with the ABRAHAMIC COVENANT a different covenant God made with Abraham. Scripture Benders like Jentezen Franklin Benny Hinn, John Hagee took it upon them to merge Old covenant and Abrahamic covenant and use it to further their “Prosperity
      Gospels” (to convince that like the old Testament Jew that tithing and offering bigger and bigger sums of money will open the door to HUGE blessings from God through other Men)
      thus when Jesus speaks of the Blessings of Abraham through his seed (Christ) The Pimps are no more getting money through blessings (supposedly commanded by God) from their sheeple than Wall Street Fat Cats get it from Merrill Lynch and the Blackstone Group .
      It is scripturally clear that the true prosperity is being In Christ and with Christ, in Heaven,whether you be rich or poor, not getting it NOW here on earth. If you are a well to do man or woman in Christ, be humble and thankful to the Almighty. but do not allign your prosperity with scripture that never pertained to you

      Maxdaddy, keep on fighting for the Truth of GOD in the best way you can and may the Almighty bless you and your family .

      DG

      Comment by godlysense | January 3, 2008 | Reply

    7. Thank you, and amen!

      Comment by maxdaddy | January 3, 2008 | Reply


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